From TheBestLinks.com
The Japanese characters (I assume that's what they are) aren't displaying in the first line. -- Zoe
- Likely possibilities: 1) You don't have Japanese fonts installed. 2) Your browser isn't configured to display Japanese characters in a Japanese font. 3) Your browser is old/limited/text-mode and doesn't recognize them anyway. Since the Japanese title is just supplementary information (it's additionally transliterated into roman characters immediately thereafter), this shouldn't hurt you much, though. --Brion VIBBER
My browser is IE 6.0.2600, so it's pretty new. No, I don't have Japanese fonts installed, and most users of wikipedi will not, either. Should we require users to download special fonts? -- Zoe
- This seems odd -- characters look fine to me. I'm at work right now using IE 6.0 that was installed with all the defaults. Konqueror 2.2.2 at home displays them as question marks, but mozilla 0.9.6 is able to display just over half of these type of characters (not sure if is displays these particular characters). --maveric149
- The general consensus is that for things like that (the original-language form of a name mentioned in passing), the audience that will find it useful (ie, can read Japanese) will mostly already have the necessary fonts installed. Most people without Japanese fonts can't read Japanese, and would skip over the funny squiggles anyway. So there are four possible ways to deal with this:
- Don't include the original form of the name, therefore making Wikipedia less informative and useful. Having the romanization helps, but romanizations are often not unique, especially with scripts like Japanese and Chinese.
- Include the name as an inline image. Awkward to do and revise (anti-wiki), looks bad printed (low resolution), doesn't scale to larger font sizes, and you can't cut-and-paste the name into a search engine or word processor.
- Include the name as characters; relatively easy to revise, can be cut-and-pasted, prints/scales as well as the fonts on your computer. Users who don't have fonts installed for the language in question will generally see question marks or boxes; for those who are actually interested in the information but don't have fonts, getting them is usually a straightforward issue. Windows users can simply visit http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ and download the Japanese font pack, for instance.
- Include both an image and the characters -- now you've got four forms of the name in a row, two of which are identical; this is getting pretty awkward, and the audience that will get use out of the image but not the characters is limited.
- This has already been discussed in Wikipedia:Unicode and elsewhere. --Brion VIBBER
In an earlier version of this article, the main group of antagonist characters in Sailor Stars was referred to as "Anima-Maids". An anonymous visitor corrected that, saying the following:
'"Anima Maids" is wrong; アニマメイツ is the official spelling of the name in Japanese, and that cannot be "Anima Maids."' Denelson83 09:09, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- The anonymous user is correct. "maid" in katakana is メード (meedo) or メイド (meido); "maids" would probably be something like メイドズ (meidozu) although I haven't seen that anywhere. メイツ is "meitsu" and is pronounced basically like "mates", so their alternative is reasonable. DopefishJustin 06:35, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
Is there a reason why Outer Senshi names have the weird accent on the "ô"? No one is going to search for "Haruka Ten'ô", but they might search for "Haruka Ten'ou". Should we correct this?
(26 Feb 2004)
Translation of "bishoujo senshi": 12.16.156.230 says the literal translation is "pretty girl soldier". However, my Japanese dictionary lists "bi" as "beauty", and "senshi" as "warrior". So, which is it?
- I can answer this question for you.
- 美 ("bi") = Beauty
- 少 ("shō") = Youth
- 女 ("jō") = The female gender
- 戦 ("sen") = War
- 士 ("shi") = Soldier
- Denelson83 06:32, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"Warrior" and "soldier" aren't different enough that you can really say one word translates to one and not the other.Ken Arromdee 20:42, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm planning to go through the individual character pages and clean up the Senshi Attacks and Powers list. I noticed (see Hino Rei in particular) that some list the english dub attacks as primary and the original attacks secondary. I think it's best to list the original version attacks first. It makes more sense (since it is the original) and is easier because many times the dub (especially in the S and SuperS seasons) gives multiple names for the same attack.
Speaking of that, does anyone see the need for an entry outlining some of the differences between the various versions of Sailormoon, perhaps in particular listing some of the eccentric incidental names from the english dub, and so on?
Silvermask 17:09, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Hey, while you're at it, Silvermask, do you think you can try writing the Kaiou Michiru article as well? Denelson83 09:06, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'd be glad to. That reminds me of something. Is there any particular consensus about how to romanize the family names of the outer senshi around here? I've noticed that we tend towards using the O with circumflex instead of ou. I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about Japanese, but I've most often seen ou used much more often (in fact I can only think of having seen the circumflex O in the context of Sailormoon, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence). Personally I prefer it for aesthetics and simplicity, although I've most often seen them as Kaioh/Tennoh/Meioh which I suppose just means people didn't want to look up ô on the character map. Ok, I'm rambling.
What I was getting around to is:
Shouldn't it be under Kaiôh Michiru or shouldn't we also change the others to Ten'nou (or Tennou) Haruka and Meiou Setsuna?
- You didn't sign that last post, but oh well. You should use the title that I put into the navigation frame at the bottom of the article. Denelson83 20:08, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There are standards for how to romanize Japanese in Wikipedia at Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles so those should be followed here. That article's talk page is the place for any disputes. To summarize what it says: short o in the title (Kaio), long ō in the article (Kaiō), although ō is even harder to type than ô. :P DopefishJustin 06:35, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
- It also says the apostrophe after n should be avoided in article titles, so "Teno" for the title and "Ten'ō" in the text. I'll probably sort these out when I get some time. DopefishJustin 17:03, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
- I've changed over Kaiō and Ten'ō, but Meiō will need a redirect deleted first, I've listed it on Wikipedia:Speedy deletions. I've also done some work on the character list in this article - we really only need the dub name and the standard romanization of the Japanese here, the orgy of alternate names that was there before belongs either on the article pages or nowhere. Some of the names also have justifications in brackets for the spellings used, those really belong here on the talk page and not in the article, but I haven't moved them for now. DopefishJustin 18:55, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
- I've deleted the redirect, but I get an error when I try to move Meiou Setsuna to Meio Setsuna. It says to get an adminstrator to help with the move. Wikiwikifast 19:12, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
- Someone else took care of it. Thanks, though. DopefishJustin 20:13, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
Images
Dispute resolved. Discussion deleted because it is no longer applicable and is useless for future reference.
Wikiwikifast 02:09, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Justifications for name spellings
These were in the article itself, I moved them here because they don't really belong in the article. DopefishJustin 22:44, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
- Tuxedo Mask: ["Tuxedo Mask" appears most often in the official Japanese sources, including the manga]
- Prince Demand: [official Japanese sources say "Demand" in Roman letters]
- Death Fantom: [the manga shows "DEATH FANTOM"; "fantom" is a variant of "phantom"]
- Amazones Quartet: ["Quartet" appears several times on the Japanese sources]
TokyoPop manga names replacing Japanese names
I think that the romanizations in the English manga should be used in the article titles for the characters instead of the ones they have right now.
Big long snip now that the massive holy war is over (amazingly, it never quite broke out into flames). For future reference, the arguments for the TokyoPop names are summarized here:
- Wikipedia should use official names wherever possible, and the manga is an official publication.
- Wikipedia is English and should thus use English names, as in Christopher Columbus (as opposed to Cristoforo Colombo).
- The Yu-Gi-Oh! articles use the translated manga names, so the Sailor Moon articles should too.
- The translated manga names are a good compromise between the original names and the dub names.
And against:
- The article concerns the entire Sailor Moon metaseries. Since the use of the TokyoPop names is limited to the translated manga, while the original names refer to all of the original manga, the original anime, the musicals, and the live-action series, the original names are preferable.
- The names most commonly used for the characters by speakers of English (according to Google) are the original Japanese names (in Western order). Thus, by various manuals of style, we should use those.
- As of this typing, this appears to no longer be true: Japanese name order appears to have overtaken Western name order, by nearly an order of magnitude. Although Google's results are known to fluctuate from day to day (or even hour to hour), this is strikingly significant. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:27, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)
- The TokyoPop names especially are relatively little-known, as there are few readers of the TokyoPop manga (and few of those are unfamiliar with at least the dub names); thus they are the least preferable, not a 'compromise'.
- Nobody seems to think the dub names should be used anyway.
- 'Official' names should not be relevant: witness Jimmy Carter versus James Earl Carter, Jr.
Anyone who wants to open this can of worms again is asked to make sure they understand the arguments presented. --Aponar Kestrel 04:44, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)
Continuing conversation
I google hitted other names and they seem consistent with your conclusion (English-order Japanese names are more popular), but I still don't understand why this is the case. WhisperToMe 03:12, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I can't say for sure, obviously. But, in the face of massive, widespread inconsistency, people will generally seek some standard to fall back on. "Usagi Tsukino" (and "Tsukino Usagi") provided that consistency; anything else (such as "purism" or "precedent") was icing on the cake. "Usagi Tsukino" probably has the advantage of being consistent with most Anglophones' experience concerning proper names, as well. --Aponar Kestrel 04:44, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)
Reversion process
Ack. I can't move Amy Mizuno to Ami Mizuno, so instead I moved it to Mizuno Ami. I keep getting "Error: could not submit form" when I used the 'move' function. Wikiwikifast 22:27, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Taken care of manually. I hate doing that -- it doesn't preserve the history -- but. (Oh, nuts. I just thought of a better way to do it. Well, lesson learned.) --Aponar Kestrel 04:25, 2004 Jul 31 (UTC)
- ... said other way doesn't actually work. Well, Raye Hino is ready to be moved to Rei Hino; I'll need to hunt down an admin, but eh, it can wait. --Aponar Kestrel 05:59, 2004 Aug 1 (UTC)
An argument to move back Meio/Kaio/Teno to Meioh/Kaioh/Tenoh
This isn't a call to move back to the TokyoPop names. I just think that Michiru Kaio/Haruka Teno/Setsuna Meio should be moved back to Meioh/Kaioh/Tenoh (With the MOS notated in the article, of course)
The "oh" romanizations are also official in the Japanese version, according to this site:
(I am not sure where the info was scanned from)
Google lists the OH romanizations as most common in English...
- 14,900 "Kaioh Michiru"
- 755 "Kaiou Michiru"
- 64 "Kaio Michiru"
- 1,750 "Michiru Kaioh"
- 1,100 "Michiru Kaiou"
- 150 "Michiru Kaio"
- 14,100 "Meioh Setsuna"
- 716 "Meiou Setsuna"
- 87 "Meio Setsuna"
- 3,900 "Setsuna Meioh"
- 2,540 "Setsuna Meio"
- 1,340 "Setsuna Meiou"
- 1,690 "Haruka Tenoh"
- 1,830 "Haruka Tenou"
- 49 "Haruka Teno"
- 14,100 "Tenou Haruka"
- 1,270 "Tenoh Haruka"
- 55 "Teno Haruka"
And as for the "Jimmy Carter" argument - he is a real person and person names tend to be spelled ad hoc or by nicknames. But these girls are fictional.
WhisperToMe 22:28, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Also, the "Jimmy Carter" argument would better reflect a naming dispute over Chibiusa over whether or not to move her to Usagi Tsukino (Younger) or something like that, if there was one. WhisperToMe 02:01, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- ... so for some reason Google has suddenly decided that "Tsukino Usagi" is more popular now than "Usagi Tsukino". And likewise for everyone else. By, likewise, almost an order of magnitude -- which I hadn't expected given that the results were trailing so far behind last time. So -- whatever; it's back to Japanese name order for, ick, everyone -- I'll handle rewriting the articles to match. Again. (And this time, short of either a) more than 100,000 hits on something else or b) Ms. Takeuchi herself writing in and telling us otherwise, we can ****** well leave them there. I'm almost beyond caring.) As for these three -- Meioh, Kaioh, and I guess keep Teno in the title (again, Surname Givenname). Ten'ō in the article, of course, and I'll have to fix the name paragraph, which is apparently wrong anyway given the gloss in the manga.
- I still can't quite believe that. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 06:21, 2004 Aug 28 (UTC)
- Also, Whisper? I know you know better. Kindly take the underlines out. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 06:23, 2004 Aug 28 (UTC)
- No, I didn't "know better" (In the case of the underlines that is), because you are so far the only person to object to this practice, though I'll remove it anyway. Has there been a poll on this in the manual of style? WhisperToMe 17:41, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I think so. I do recall that it came up, and wasn't included in the final version. I believe the eventual consensus was that underlined kanji just didn't look right, and was superfluous anyway. And, no, I'm not the only person to object to you not following the Manual of Style. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:16, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)
- I was specifically meaning the underlining. :) WhisperToMe 00:56, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Position of SOS link
Looks like we got a small edit war in this article. An anonymous user puts the SOS link at the top, a known user returns it to its old position, and then the same anonymous user puts it right back at the top. Denelson83 02:18, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Fine. Let's justify it then. Here are some sites that explain why people hate SOS:
- --Wikiwikifast 12:22, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Honestly I don't care about SOS one way or another; it's just that Hitoshi Doi's page is almost certainly going to be more useful to the vast majority of readers than the SOS page is. The only reason I can see for Wikipedia to have the SOS link there is if it did, in fact, make history (as its text blurb implies). --Aponar Kestrel 19:18, 2004 Jul 14 (UTC)
- Actually, it did make history, albeit in a negative way. "Saturday, December 14th, 1996... a day that shall remain in infamy," (from the first link, in reference to the SOS Strawberry Pop Tarts debacle). But yes, Hitoshi Doi's page is the canonical Sailor Moon reference. --Wikiwikifast 22:38, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
ja: link
For some reason,the ja: links for this and another article were malfunctioning to the point that I had to create #REDIRECT links for the phantom ja: articles(with "gibberish" titles).Ranma9617 20:36, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Naming order
I think the naming order should be mentioned in the character listing. WhisperToMe 06:04, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- ... that's what the individual character pages are for. The really casual reader doesn't care, and anyone else will be able to tell which order they're in -- or at least that they need to go to the individual character's page to find out. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 22:02, 2004 Sep 15 (UTC)
American Sailor Moon
(plus Seramyū Style issues)
Why is that very long and boring history of every major channel the show has played on in the US the main entry? Can't it be moved to it's own section?
- I'm not even sure it's notable myself. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 01:58, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
- Well... Let's move it then. -- Kunzite
- Knock yourself out... you can probably take large portions of the rest of this article with it. How does Localization of Sailor Moon in America sound? --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)
Second: it's "Seramyū" not SeraMyū. It's a common style of Japanese abbrev. that you've all seen in names like Walkman, Pokemon, Digimon, ワープロ, コンビニ, etc... They never cap. the first letter of the second part. --Kunzite 03:12, 2004 Sep 29 (UTC)
- ... um, you know that section of Japanese name you quoted earlier? I wrote that. (Or at least heavily edited.) No, it's SeraMyū simply because that's how it's usually written in English, which (says the core style guide) more or less overrides everything else. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 01:58, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
- Well that's very nice that you wrote that article. I originally edited that article because it was wrong for implying that the 'seramyu' was something western fans had made up. I had seperate sources for it, but I thought it better to quote from the wikipedia even though it lacked information on the Chinese influence of that style of abbreviation.
- The only reason I mentioned that I wrote it is that you seemed to be citing it as an example of "abbreviations shouldn't be capitalized". ... where was that bit about Anglophones making it up implied, incidentally? Not that I'm saying it wasn't, I just can't find it offhand. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)
Anyway... where are the statistics that show Seramyū is written as SeraMyū rather than Seramyū? There's no consistancy on it... and it's NEVER done with the macron. Maybe in WAAPUROshiki as SERAMYUU.
- Looking at the first hundred Google returns (without actually entering the site): 32 SeraMyu, 28 Seramyu, 10 used all caps or all lowercase, 4 were spaced or hyphenated (either "Sera-Myu" or "Sera Myu", however), and 5 didn't have any examples in the snippet of page text Google provided. That said, I obtained my initial estimate (which I now cede was a misestimate) by eyeball: the "majority" (what little there is) is close enough that I shan't bother editing a page save for internal consistency anymore (much as American English vs. Commonwealth English).
- And we don't use wapuro romaji (you can hardly call it -shiki) in articles any more than we use Kunrei-shiki. Hepburn doesn't care about capitals, last I checked, but we do put the macrons on. (See the archived conversation at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles/Macrons.) --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is an English encyclopedia. An English word or name with a Japanese origin should be used in its English form in the body of an article, even if that is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese form"
We also violate another main style the spelling with the Ten'oū, Meioh, and Kaioh nonsense that's been going..
- Hey, Whisper! You get to explain this one. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)
Quoth the style guide:"Each article should have uniform spelling and not a haphazard mix of different spellings (it can be jarring to the reader). In particular, for individual words and word-endings."-- Kunzite
- Yeah, it's annoying when two style guidelines want contradictory results with no suggested way of resolving the contradiction, isn't it? --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 05:42, 2004 Oct 1 (UTC)
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